Honda Spree and Elite 50 Forums

I rebuilt my 85 or 86 Spree some years back. It's run fine till recently when it started to NOT start but turn over until it wanted to start...then it would lock up. Just tonight I took it apart...and apparently the piston pin lock clips are missing. I know I put them in a few years back. In fact the loss of the lock clips is what made me rebuild it years back. I bought the clips and probably the piston, I can't remember, so why it's losing the piston pin clips is beyond me.

Where can I get a couple of piston pin clips?

Thankee gentlemen.

the question would be where have they gone too?

you probably can still get them from honda or from tazland here on the site. But if you lost them how does the cyl. and piston look. Usually when they go they do damage to one or the other or both.

Circlips are available from Honda, I buy them at least a half dozen at a time every so often as both my spree and express use the same part number. Strange both are missing though.

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Thanks everyone. But I have to back up a bit. Last night I was working on it in my basement under poor light and I simply missed seeing them. This morning I looked again and sure enough they're in place.

So back to the drawing board.

I explained the symptoms are that it would turn over then bog way down until it would stop cranking over. Even missing clips wouldn't explain that but .....

I found the crankcase is full of oil. My mind had to switch back to two stroke from four stroke....and I'm pretty sure a two stroke shouldn't have any oil in the crankcase....right? The bearings should get their lubrication from the oil in the fuel/oil mix in the crankcase. Can someone confirm that there shouldn't be any oil there?

And next, assuming there isn't supposed to be any oil in the crankcase, where would it come from? I can't see the pump putting so much oil into the mix that it's condensing in the case.

I'll wait to see what everyone has to say before I proceed with empying the oil.

Thanks a lot.

Empty the crank case you have to anyway. Oil pumps can fail and dump oil in the crank case while the scooter sits.

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patthesoundguy wrote:Empty the crank case you have to anyway. Oil pumps can fail and dump oil in the crank case while the scooter sits.

Have ya ever taken an oil pump apart? Is there a diaphram inside that starts to leak?

I just thought of something also....last year the scoot started to "chatter" when I was accelerating. Someone suggested I look at the clutch so I did but couldn't see anything wrong. The chattering went away by itself but is there anything I could have screwed up inside that would allow oil from somewhere inside the clutch housing area to go into the engine crankcase. Maybe just a long shot but ......

I appreciate your help.

Grandpa wrote:Have ya ever taken an oil pump apart? Is there a diaphram inside that starts to leak?

Here's a link, there is no diaphram to go bad:

Oil pump anatomy link

-- If curious --
Take your pump out with driveshaft intact, leaving the input line connected. Place over a container (or better -- two) so you can isolate if it is leaking from the shaft seal, or straight through the pump to from input to output

-- If curious --
Take your pump out with driveshaft intact, leaving the input line connected. Place over a container (or better -- two) so you can isolate if it is leaking from the shaft seal, or straight through the pump to from input to output

Most excellent. Thanks for that pic and the suggestion. The only problem I can see by attempting the isolation is the time frame. It sat most of the winter in the garage so if it's a very very slow leak from either place it may not show up if I only leave it for a couple of weeks now.

I wouldn't mind simply replacing the whole pump in the interest of doing it faster. Would the person named "Tazland" that dun rite spoke of have them? Mr. Tazland...are you reading this?

Thanks again.

The only problem I can see by attempting the isolation is the time frame. It sat most of the winter in the garage so if it's a very very slow leak from either place it may not show up if I only leave it for a couple of weeks now.

I have had a few pumps failed similar to yours. I'd guess yours leaks enough oil in a week or two to give a clear indication. If you ride daily, and note smoke at startup vs waiting a week to a month between rides you will see a difference in smoke.

-- Example oil pump leak:

• Three months: Crankcase would have enough oil to lock up the engine.
• One month of sitting: Oil fouling of plug for many starting attempts. Single Pop from the engine, then no further firing. The plug needed to be pulled and oil cleaned off for the next starting attempt.
• One week: The pump leaked the amount shown in the pic below. Heavy smoke for several blocks
• One day: No excessive smoke after start-up

Thanks Mr. Mousewheels.

Tazland doesn't appear to be around ... can you suggest a Honda dealer from where I can order a pump?

Grandpa

post a wanted to buy add on the forum. someone will most likely have one.

Done. Thanks.